Hey all The Deck Out followers!
It’s been a long time since I released my first Eye on Japan article, which changed the whole world’s metagame radically and caused the extreme Mewtwo EX hype. However, I thought I could change the point of view a little bit and this is what I came up with. I thought that since I‘ve done Eye on Japan it would be a good idea to combine two things in this entry that are both related to the Eye on Japan entries and the deck analysis I’ve made:
1) How the western metagame has been affected by the decks from Japan
2) How the western players have developed the basic lists and ideas I gave in the first Eye on Japan
There are two decks that I focus mainly on; 6 corners and Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode. This both decks caused a lot of skepticism once I revealed them but they have claimed their spot in the top tier of this format. However, they both have been changing radically in the hands of western players so this is a combined entry of deck analysis and a look at the differences between Japan and rest of the world.
It’s been a long time since I released my first Eye on Japan article, which changed the whole world’s metagame radically and caused the extreme Mewtwo EX hype. However, I thought I could change the point of view a little bit and this is what I came up with. I thought that since I‘ve done Eye on Japan it would be a good idea to combine two things in this entry that are both related to the Eye on Japan entries and the deck analysis I’ve made: 1) How the western metagame has been affected by the decks from Japan
2) How the western players have developed the basic lists and ideas I gave in the first Eye on Japan
There are two decks that I focus mainly on; 6 corners and Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode. This both decks caused a lot of skepticism once I revealed them but they have claimed their spot in the top tier of this format. However, they both have been changing radically in the hands of western players so this is a combined entry of deck analysis and a look at the differences between Japan and rest of the world.
6 corners
Everything but the name can be changed in this deck and so has been done.
Pokemon:
4x Virizion (NV)
2x Kyurem(NV)
2x Reshiram(BW)
1x Zekrom(BW)
1x Terrakion (NV)
1x Bouffalant(BW)
1x Shaymin (UL)
= 12
Trainer:
4x Professor Juniper
4x Professor Oak’s New Theory
1x Cheren
4x Pokemon Collector
3x Pokegear 3.0
4x Pokemon Catcher
4x Switch
4x Junk arm
3x Eviolite (NV)
2x Super Scoop Up
1x Super Rod (NV)
=34
Energy:
6x Grass Energy
4x Rainbow Energy
4x Double Colorless Energy
= 14
This is the basic list that I revealed in my 6 corners article that caused a huge reaction in the players worldwide. Many said that it doesn’t win anything since it doesn’t have a real synergy, it can be outplayed etc. However, as this list isn’t a near perfect list some people took the deck into testing and have developed it a lot.
The great about 6 corners is that it can have 4, 5, 6 or even 8 corners if you want to build it that way. I’ll now take a look at the most common 6 corner changes and compare them to the original list. How has the western metagame affected the cards played in the 6 corners?
The reaction to Magnezone/Eelektrik and ZPST
6 corners had already a build in answer to lighting decks – Terrakion. However, 1 Terrakion wasn’t enough to take down a whole army of Zekrom and Magnezones. Many players noticed this and took off some Virizions and changed the Terrakion as one of the main attackers of the deck.
Virizion numbers of many decks dropped soon to 2 and many players discussed if Virizion was even that good a card. However, at this point Virizion still stayed in the deck because it was still a great starter. Virizion was also a great card against Kyurem/Cobalion/Electrode deck, which rose to popularity soon after the release of the first deck list, I’m going to analyze in this entry as well.
Even though 6 corners had all the answers against the metagame, it still didn’t win that many Cities. It’s still 6th in the most winning deck’s list in the City Championships and decks like Durant and even The Truth have more wins than 6 corners.
And then came the candles
This was the most depressing deck for 6 corners. 6 corners base list didn’t have a real counter against Chandelure and neither did the Terrakion version. If the Chandelure was offensive version, it gave 6 corners even more problems. Big Digimons like Kyurem/Zekrom/Reshiram couldn’t use Outrage in Confusion and they were too easy to get KOed. Combined with Chandelure’s trainer lock 6 corners had faced its first real auto-loss.
Six Corners is a deck that should have an answer against every deck. There must be a solution against Chandelure as well. Two cards popped out simultaneously: Absol Prime & Spinarak.
Absol Prime OHKOs every Chandelure with only 2 energy and its Poké-Body is a great one. However, it has so few HP that Chandelure can still KO it very easily with only 2 Cursed Shadows and Eerie Glow. That’s why 1 Absol Prime isn’t enough to counter a whole Chandelure deck. In order to win Chandelure you need a Virizion oriented 6 corners deck that uses 2 Absol Primes.
The other tech – Spinarak – is very annoying for the opponent because you can win the game with it in T1. If you have Switch, Spinarak and Grass Energy in your opening hand and your opponent starts the game with a Baby, you win the game. That is, if they aren’t prepared with Switch against your Spinarak, which isn’t that common because 6 corners isn’t usually in the threat list of Chandelure players.
If you want to play Spinarak in 6 corners you need to once again go back to basics and play Virizion heavy 6 corners list. This is because you need a lot of Grass energy to make Spinarak work. You need to activate Spinarak’s Spider Web in T1 or T2 to win the game with it. Virizion heavy builds are usually very good against other Trainer locking decks as well.
Which caused Ants to rampage
Durant was hyped in the beginning but it was soon forgotten because ReshiPlosion was so big. However, once ReshiPlosion popularity decreased since it couldn’t win other top decks, Durant came back. At first, everybody loved Durant because it was so different but once it made a comeback and people started to lose to it, it generated hate against it. I never got why Durant was so hated because it’s something different and you can win against it, if you’re prepared for it.
6 corners was one of those decks that had huge problems against Durant. The reason for this was that 6 corners doesn’t have a good way to OHKO Durant and Durant can disrupt with it a lot with things like Crushing Hammer and Lost Remover. 6 corners can attach only 1 energy per turn and that’s why Crushing Hammers and Lost Removers cause it so much problems. They can keep removing your energy at the same pace you keep on attaching them and in the end you’re the one who runs out of steam.
So what can 6 corners do against Durant? There is probably one 1 card that can really stand a chance against Durant – Victini V-Create. It hits 100 with only 2 energy so it OHKOs Durants easily. It’s only negative side is that it needs Rainbow Energy in order to attack. Lost Remover is its worst enemy and may give it some problems but nevertheless Victini can single-handedly win the game for 6 corners as long as you play it smart and they don’t luck sack every flip with Crushing Hammer.
Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode (CaKE/LaKE/CoKE etc…)
I’ve never liked this deck’s nicknames but that’s not thankfully, which matters the most. The original list looked like this and it has experienced serious changes during City Championships to become as good deck as it’s at the moment.
Pokemon:
4x Cobalion (NV)
3x Voltorb (TM)
3x Electrode (TM)
1x Kyurem (NV)
1x Cleffa (CL)
=12
Trainer:
4x Professor Junioer
3x N (NV)
2x Professor Oak’s New Theory
2x Sage’s Training
1x Pokegear 3.0
4x Pokémon Collector
1x Professor Elm’s Training Method
3x Junk Arm
3x Eviolite(NV)
2x Super Rod (NV)
3x Pokemon Catcher
2x Pokemon Communication
2x Research Records
=32
Energy:
8x Basic Metal Energy
4x Special Metal Energy
4x Water Energy
=16
As you can see, the original list is no near lists that are running wild at the moment. Let’s take a look at how the original Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode has been modified in the hands of Western players.
Pokemon:
2x Cobalion (NVI)
3x Kyurem
4x Voltorb (TM)
3x Electrode (TM)
1x Terrakion(NVI)
1x Jirachi
=14
Trainer:
2x Pokegear 3.0.
4x Professor Juniper
4x Pokémon Collector
4x N (NV)
2x Sage’s Training
4x Junk Arm
3x Eviolite(NV)
2x Super Rod (NV)
3x Pokemon Catcher
2x Pokemon Communication
=30
Energy:
4x Rainbow Energy
1x Psychic Energy
3x Special Metal Energy
7x Water Energy
=16
Well, as you can see the deck is radically changed. Kyurem is now the main attacker and the deck has teches which support the deck’s idea. Jirachi makes it easier to KO Evolved Pokémons after Glaciates. The deck’s main idea is now to spread with Kyurem and finish things with counter KOs from Terrakion and Cobalion. Terrakion is a great tech because it can single-handedly kill a Magnezone/Eelektrik deck when Eviolited.
I know many top players of the worldwide are playing with list like this and there are also decks that use more Fighting Energy and even Landorus as the main attackers. This can be a very good choice for Lighting heavy metagame because Landorus is as deadly as Terrakion when it comes to Lighting Pokémons. Not to mention that Landorus can also load itself with its attack.
Since the deck I showed earlier is a bit hi-fi for my taste, I would like to take a look a bit more standard version of the same deck. The earlier version of CaKE just shows how much difference can be made to the deck’s ultimate game plan when in the hands of different people and metagame.
Pokemon:
2x Cobalion (NVI)
4x Kyurem
4x Voltorb (TM)
4x Electrode (TM)
=14
Trainer:
2x Pokegear 3.0.
4x Professor Juniper
4x Pokémon Collector
4x N (NV)
2x Sage’s Training
4x Junk Arm
3x Eviolite(NV)
2x Super Rod (NV)
3x Pokemon Catcher
2x Pokemon Communication
=30
Energy:
4x Special Metal Energy
2x Basic Metal
10x Water Energy
=16
As you can see, this is a bit more standard version of the same deck but it still has big differences to the original list. Kyurem has been widely recognized to be a better main attacker in this deck than Cobalion and that’s because spreading and blowing up Electrodes works very well against many decks in this format.
This deck has great match-ups against things like Ross.dec and Chandelure because they set-up with Twins and have a lot of Pokémons to set-up in order to win any games. Electrode negates any Twins they try to use and Kyurem just takes cares of the unevolved Basics. Cobalion is still a must in this deck because Kyurem can still be countered by another Cobalion and you have to have an answer against that.
This list is also very Electrode heavy and it also has more Communications so you can get T2 Trode almost 100% of time. T2 Electrode is the thing, which makes or breaks this deck. That’s why this list aims in getting it all the time.
What can we learn from this?
I think the number one thing we can learn from this is that netdecking IS good for the game. It helps the game become more versatile (in case of new decks) and even if it doesn’t make the game more versatile, it develops the quality of the decks. For example, I got my Chandelure decklist, which I won 3 Cities with from my Japanese friend Ukinin-san. However, the list wasn’t even nearly the same, which I ended up using in the tournaments. Nevertheless it was a great list to begin with and to develop.
Netdecking is as it best when people take an already “invented” deck and make their own spins for them. That way simple decks like Cobalion/tech Kyurem/Electrode can turn into Kyurem/Cobalion/Terrakion/Jirachi/Electrode. All this in mere months. I really enjoy watching how the players all over the world take a deck idea that I’m able to reveal from Japan and turn it into a great but slightly different deck.
Also, the metagame of Japan and West is very different. The metagame is the number one reason, which changes the decks and that’s probably why list from Japan seem always so weird to the Western players. Our metagame is far more focused than theirs. Teching is easier in west but at the same time it takes a bit of imagination to come up with great techs against the difficult match-ups. For that, I most applaud all the players who have been developing both, 6 corners and Cobalion/Kyurem/Electrode for the western metagame.
Conclusion
I hope you enjoyed this entry since it was a bit different compared to my usual entries. It’s fun to try different kind of approaches to articles now and then. I also hope that this could give you a bit more insight into these decks and maybe I could give you lists that you haven’t seen before. The Terrakion version of CaKE is something I’ve rarely seen on the internet (when it comes to good lists).
Anyways, let me know what your thoughts about this entry and about these decks. I’ll also provide for you guys the best so I hope you enjoyed this. Any comments are appreciated, thanks for reading!
I'm not commenting that much anymore these days but I wanted to say I still read all your articles as soon as they come out.
ReplyDeleteI think this was a great idea for an article. It is fascinating to see how players from the West have taken a Japanese deck and changed it. I wonder if CaKE or 6 corners would have been a part of the western metagame if you hadn't published an article on them. Makes you wonder what other decks we (the whole world) may be missing...
As for the article in itself, it was very informative, but it seems like it lacks something, I don't know what exactly. Maybe you could have given a newer 6 corners decklist as you did for CaKE ?
Also :
"I think the number one thing we can learn from this is that netdecking IS good for the game."
Thank you. It annoys me how many people are against netdecking. The game can only grow if people can get easy access to information on decks, techs, etc. Netdecking is a natural development of this. It makes the game much better if everyone can play good decks, it makes skill more important. We all know anyway that you need more than a good decklist to win tournaments!
Sorry, I'm rambling. Keep on writing great articles!
Great article Esa!!!
ReplyDeleteEven't if i don't play this decks (i'm playing aggro Chandelure w/o Vileplume 'till they arrive, and preparing to tech it against mewtwo EX), it is a very complete article for a deck (as Ross' deck was) made to answer every meta (in the case of 6 corners), and another popular one (Cake/etc), as you exposed since the beginning.
Reading a lot of articles about past metas, the game has evolved to a better/healthier one.
Lets see what happens when ND arrives. XD
not a bad article. helps a tiny bit with the "sd" i told you about.
ReplyDeleteI played CaKE myself at our cities tournament this past Sunday. Overall the deck itself did very well (even with it missing some cards I needed) while I myself made several mistakes.
ReplyDeleteFunny enough, my decklist looks almost identical to the very last one you have posted here (me and my friend assembled it hastily before the tournament and without any reference to anything online). The only faults I found was the serious trouble the deck could get in if you didn't pull off an Energymite by T3 or T4 - not to mention how even with 16 Energy I would sometimes only pull out one energy. The discarding part never gave me any issues - just the bad or too late Energymite pulls.
All in all a fun deck, however, sometimes it boils down to sheer luck as you anxiously look at those top seven cards. With the sheer presence of EelZone in my local meta, I would have played LaKE instead if possible.
Hey this is a nice article :)
ReplyDeleteI just wanna ask something about the CKE list, do you think a 3-4 electrode line will be better? I'm testing 3-4 without any Communications or Elms and I found it very reliable to pull off a t2 or t3 energymite. I also think that since you don't have to energymite more than 3 times each game anyway, so maybe the 4th voltorb isn't needed.
Your conclusion of netdecking IS good for the game is incorrect. Netdecking is good for the development of already existing decks. However that doesn't mean it is good for the game itself. Just for evolving the existing deck builds.
ReplyDeletePeople just won't do anything else so eventually the only thing you can see is a netdeck. Complete tournaments of netdecks isn't a real tournament. It is more like planning who gets the CP points.
Once there is a single deck that counters it (a deck nobody thinks of because they cant build anymore exept copy from the net) people only hate it because it works better. Because they didn't see it coming. If it wins more and is published it's understandable, but the real hard-core netdecking aren't real players. Those are just people who want to use other people's deck so they can go to a weaker tournament and sweep away all prizes.
However, the article itself is really good.
Luby: No need to apologize, after all these articles are first and foremost for people to read. You can comment whenever you feel like. Of course, I'm always happy when I get comments since that helps me to see different kind of point of views and develop my articles.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your opinions, I really appreciate them! I guess I didn't include a 6 Corners list because I would've had included like 7 different kind of lists of 6 Corners and that wouldn't have gotten anywhere - it's such a versatile deck.
Elias: Thanks a lot! Yeah, I agree that 6 Corners and CaKE were very healthy additions to the metagame and I'm happy I could reveal them to westenr players. I'm hopeful for the future as well, even though it might seem a bit gloom at the moment.
Anonymous1: Thanks!
Lee: The early Energymite really is the key with CaKE. If you are able to get the T2 Kyurem in every game, you're in very good position. No matter if you only get 1 energy off Energymite as long you can start attacking with Glaciate T2. However, as you said, sometimes the deck just fails miserably delivering promises it has.
zappy: Yeah, you can run 3-4 as well since you pretty much ned only 1 maybe 2 Energymites per game. Of course, you're in problems if you one Voltorb is prized, you get 0-1 energy form the first Energymite and they kill your 3rd Torb. I'm so consistency friendly and that's why I run 4-4 Elctrode line. But if you feel like 3 Voltorbs is enough for you, then 3-4 line is great.
Anonymous2: That's a very interesting point of view. In Finland we don't have these so called "weaker" tournaments since everyone goes to pretty much every tournament but I understand what you mean.
I think netdecking is healthy when it comes to a new decks like these two. If I hadn't revealed these decks, they wouldn't have probably ever popped out to the publicity. However, because I released them, the metagame to more versatile and fun because these both decks are pretty darn fun to play compared to likes of ZPST or ReshiPlosion.
Also, netdecking is the ingredient of new players to grow more quickly. I always tell new players to netdeck all their first decklists and to understand why those cards are in those decks. I have learnt everything from nothing by myself but it has taken me 8 years to do so. If I can help a player to achieve almost the same level that I am at, in only a year, I'm always ready to do that.
Thanks for your opinion, I learnt very much from it!
And thanks for all the comments everyone, keep em' coming!
I liked the article overall.
ReplyDeleteIMO your analysis of using Victini V-Create as a Durant counter isnt quite right. Sure its nice to ideally be able to do consistant 200 to each Durant but it isnt reasonable. You already mentioned Lost remover and Crushing hammer as an issue when using Victini but IMO you failed to mention the biggest reason why Victini doesnt work... Pokemon Catcher. Using Victini forces you to clog your bench and have ample "big" monsters with high retreat costs be catchered up and stalled out on turms. Sure Switch can aid in countering this to an extent but it wont always be available.
Also I agree with you and never understood why netdecking (or publically putting up lists) was so looked down upon in this game. Having come over from Yugioh where lists from big tourneys are constantly put out I never understood the secretcy of lists. Obviously maintaining techs before a tourney is important but afterwards I see little use for it since many people have already seen you play the deck throughout the tourney. IMO its healthy for developing a meta game to its fullest in making top tier decks and then making decks to counter those.
People argue that "netdecking" or list sharing promotes lack of creativity. But in reality creative people are gonna still be creative and good players are gonna play what they feel is going to give them the best chance to win, whether its another persons list or their own creation.
Esa, great job as always. I was clued in to Terrakion in the kyurem/cobalion deck by playing against it in the online game. good summary.
ReplyDeleteand I must concur that netdecking is a huge help for the game. I must admit that when I took chandelure to the city championships I was hyped up to clean house and dissappointed with my crappy showing. But without deck lists, I doubt I'd still be playing. I just don't have time to figure out all the different aspects of this great game and having decklists helps me play the game with my son.
Anonymous: Ahh, yeah, I noticed the same thing with Victini once I posted the article. Victini isn't a perfect solution against Durant but it's the best. However, things like Lost Remover, Crushing Hammer and tech Ditto(TM) make playing Victini very difficult. Thanks for noting that!
ReplyDeleteken: Thanks a lot! Indeed, you can't win the tournaments by simply netdekcing a list - winning a tournament is so much more than just playing games and building a deck. There are things that you can learn only by yourself.
Dark rush represented the durant-killer Heatmor, there's no doubt that decks that have trouble with durant will tech 1-2 of those. for one colorless it can hit durant for 120. That even Ditto(TM) won't stop.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to the comments? They are very hard to read.
ReplyDeleteAnother way to win Chandelure with Vileplume with 6corners is to play with your time (30mins)and set up Kyurem once you have pass 20min into the game and try find every small detail that they may misplay it. Also take note 6corner will NEVER take all 6 prizes. I played 3 trainer lock deck, 2 x chandy and 1 x losgar.
ReplyDeleteZhaituki: Yeah, Heatmor is a great card against Durant but won't see it in our format in the near future so there is no point thinking of that yet.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: It's Blogger new layout what happpened to them. I know it sucks but I can't help it, sorry : ( I'm trying the best I can to move to WordPress.
Fazli: That's very interesting point of view. I have played a lot against 6 Corners and with 6 Corners and my game pace is so fast that I've never played 30 minutes in this format. That's probably one of the reasons I play Chandelure since I don't lose on time with it. Also, if Chandelure is playing Blissey, Kyurem won't be much of an help. However, always nice to see a different point of view!